50 – Motherhood, Neurodiversity, and Coming Home to Yourself

0:01Lea WernliHi and welcome back to Time for You. Um, maybe you already know it, um, it's a podcast with Shelia Stevens and Leah Wernley, and I'm Leah Wernley. Today I'm not with my friend Shelia Stevens, I'm with Orit Eshel. That's another friend, because Time for You is kind of a podcast where 2 friends are hanging out and talking and sharing, like, what happens in their life. And sometimes there is a little teaching around the principles. Very often it's just like being together, having a good time, and enjoying.

0:49So as a listener, I'm very happy that you're hanging with us and I will introduce Orit a little bit. Why is she hanging with me today? Actually, I saw her and I met her when we both did like the Super Coach Academy with Michael Neal, and she had red lipstick on that day.

1:15Orit EschelYeah.

1:16Lea WernliYeah. And we walked in, and I think maybe we were late. It could be that we were late, but we were the ones walking beside or behind. And Wynne Morgan had a big hat and he was walking in front of us. And I think we looked at each other and it was just like this instant falling in love. Like, you know, it was this instant connection somehow. And, um, yeah, it started there. And then we went for lunch and then we went for a walk and then we went—

1:53Orit EschelI remember that.

1:55Lea WernliSo welcome, Orit Eshel. She's a wonderful person and coach, um, living in Berlin right now. So yeah, do you want to tell something about you? Maybe something fresh? I don't know, like—

2:17Orit EschelI think in German, and then I think fresh.

2:20Lea WernliOh, it's something Something that you learned about yourself very recently.

2:29Orit EschelOh God, I'm learning too many things all the time. Okay. Yes. Okay. Something that I even sent you yesterday. I think it was this term called dolphining. Something with dolphins.

2:45Lea WernliYeah.

2:45Orit EschelI don't know how to pronounce it in English, but this thing of This thing when you have a conversation and it seems like the other person, me, Mm-hmm. has something that is completely unrelated and that, yeah. And then go on and on until at the end it comes back to the point. It makes sense. I always only knew that the best conversations I have with people are like that. And You know, that's the best conversations. It means that we have so much to talk about and that we can just spend days together.

3:24And some people like my husband, they don't really get it. They want, they want you to get to the point. I think with people who are like us, we get the point because the point is just whatever comes up because we know that everything will tie up.

3:43Lea WernliYes.

3:44Orit EschelBut I learned yesterday that we like exchanging watching all these videos and posts about ADHD women and all that because it's just funny.

3:55Lea WernliYeah.

3:56Orit EschelAnd it's like, oh, that's me. So what I learned yesterday is this, that this thing is called dolphining. And people like us, I guess, you know, they like dolphins, they dive deep, deep, deep, deep down, all these things, and they have all these thoughts and connotations and associations and stories coming up. Then they come out from the sea again, you know, up with these amazing ideas. And for someone else, it can seem totally unrelated.

4:33Lea WernliYeah.

4:35Orit EschelHow does this connect? But for us, it's so obvious.

4:38Lea WernliYeah. So true. And I love that dolphin, dolphin in, oh God, I can't, I can't even pronounce it.

4:48Orit EschelYou're in Daiboku.

4:49Lea WernliI am doing it, but I can't pronounce it. So I love that. It's like this, something sparks because of a word, because I don't know what the heck, but then we just dive into very deep unknown, um, uh, Gewässer. What's Gewässer?

5:09Orit EschelUh, body of water.

5:12Lea WernliBody of water. So yeah, a very new word and dolphin in Dolphin-ing. Oh wow, I love it. Yeah, that's, um, very interesting because actually probably on here I never talked about ADHD. So, and it was as I told you, and not that long ago, that it, it wasn't that important to me anymore, like the diagnosis and stuff like that, because really a lot of things just changed somehow. Not internally, like, I still dolphin. I do— I have a lot of thoughts. I have like these impulses.

5:56I do a lot of crazy things. I experiment. But like, the shame or the guilt or the not feeling okay with all of that really just dissolved. So it was like— even the diagnosis, because I have it for a very long, not a very, but a long time was like—

6:16Orit EschelYou had it since you were a young person?

6:17Lea WernliYeah. Young adult. Like—

6:20Orit EschelI got it at 35.

6:21Lea WernliI know. I had it too.

6:23Orit EschelIt took me a few more years to actually say, oh, it's real. It's not just an ex— I didn't, I felt like it's one more excuse and like, it's probably not it.

6:35Lea WernliYeah, I know. But actually for the people as well to say, we talk about it a lot. So in my private life, I actually do talk about it. And with the youth I work, I'm also known for being an ADHD coach. So it's funny that like my online identity or—

7:00Orit EschelAnd we actually planned to do a few years ago, it was a time when I hosted something every week, Zoom on YouTube, on Facebook. And we actually planned to do Really? Yes. I talked to you and I said, oh yeah, we can do it. Maybe we do it. And we said, oh, we can talk about it. And then it didn't happen.

7:22Lea WernliYeah.

7:22Orit EschelSo maybe it takes a few years.

7:25Lea WernliSometimes it even takes a few years. Yes. But the very, very cool thing is that, yeah, even when you have it or you think you have it or you have like symptoms or behavior or whatever. Um, nowadays it's not that under the carpet as it used to be, and also a lot of females are just like, um, coming out somehow. Yeah, so it's funny because now it's like a bigger theme, and I realize, oh yeah, of course I, I can talk about it as well. So it was just not—

8:04Orit EschelThat when I was young, just that no one knew anything about it. I think it was ADHD was something that boys have.

8:12Lea WernliI know.

8:12Orit EschelThe ones who disrupt in class and the teacher sends them out to calm down or whatever. And yeah, and I think we're a generation maybe of women who, at least for me, it's only after we had a kid and suddenly there is no time to just take a lot of downtime and, you know, how do you say, cave into the energy loss or anything. Suddenly it's like, okay, it wasn't fun before. I'm talking about, you know, being when you don't know yourself.

8:54Lea WernliYeah. Yeah.

8:55Orit EschelAnd everything can be really difficult and Suddenly you also have a kid and it requires so much attention. And you don't have the freedom of time that you had before because maybe before you could manage between all your stuff or take a lot of downtime.

9:15Lea WernliYeah.

9:15Orit EschelAnd just find your ways of balancing out. It still felt like a struggle, but now it's like, You come against the wall and you have no idea what's going on.

9:29Lea WernliYeah.

9:29Orit EschelAnd it's like you're all over the place. And then maybe with hormones changing even more.

9:36Lea WernliYeah.

9:37Orit EschelAnd then suddenly you read on the internet about all these things that, uh, that describe you. And then you find out that, oh, I'm ADHD, I'm neurodivergent, I am autistic. Yeah. Suddenly it all makes sense. It's about—

9:53Lea WernliYeah. Totally. It's so true. But, ah, I love it. And we, we already had this discussion somehow or sometime, or I mean, we all, we have it all the time. And, um, I really believe, as I always do, that we have this innate wisdom. Like, we just know. And if you're drawn to like really diving into like this neuroscience just do it. If you're drawn to like just having a look at, I don't know, behavioral therapy, yeah, whatever helps. But what I always do and still do, and I told you I think last time, I mean, not one teenager or, or adult or whoever is with me in a conversation, I always will talk with them about like the the snow globe and the principles behind it somehow, because with— it doesn't matter how fast my thinking is or how crazy or how wild I go, and the, the mechanics behind it are and were extremely helpful to me and still are.

11:13Orit EschelJust a second, just a second. Yeah.

11:15Lea WernliI'm talking and you, yeah, do whatever you do.

11:19Orit EschelOh, someone came in to take something.

11:21Lea WernliYeah, that's, that's a—

11:23Orit EschelNo, it's also, uh, homes are too—

11:27Lea Wernliyeah, like, our—

11:28Orit Eschelit's one room that has to be everything. And it's— even if it wasn't a Saturday morning, since I have kids who are— it's not the end, like, the school year only ends in about 10 days here, and they're completely burnt out. My kid is almost always at home now, or I have to pick her from school like an hour after she got there. So yeah, we have to, you know, to do with what we have. ADHD people are completely resourceful. That's really good.

11:56Lea WernliThat's very good. And actually, we always have to. No, it doesn't matter if there is a neurodiversity in the family or not. I mean, it's always crazy, But we really do have to admit it is, when you have it as a parent, there is a likelihood that your kids are kind of wired in the same or a small different way.

12:23Orit EschelWe also see it through our kids for ourselves.

12:25Lea WernliYes, totally.

12:27Orit EschelSo you're seeing some, I think it's, this is one of the amazing things about being a parent is also that on the one hand, you get to be a kid again and connect to this. And, you know, just even just dancing, singing, all those things that you maybe didn't let yourself express yourself. And, but also just seeing some things that you just realize, oh, you know, I've been finding ways to deal with this all my life.

12:55Lea WernliYes.

12:56Orit EschelBut I'm actually like this.

12:57Lea WernliYeah, totally. I know. I actually found it out when I was teaching. I was teaching special needs classes when I was very young and I had like 13 ADHD boys in one room. Oh God. Yeah. And I really had to— I was digging deep into pedagogic. You say that in English as well? I don't know. I never know anymore.

13:24Orit EschelGerman invaded my English, so I—

13:26Lea WernliI know. Yeah. So I was really reading a lot of psychology and pedagogic, like it, it's how you teach. And then I realized, oh, that That could help me too. So interesting. So that's when I started to see someone and got diagnosed. And yeah.

13:51Orit EschelBy the way, I think you talked about, I did notice what you said before we were interrupted and the snow globe.

13:59Lea WernliYeah.

14:00Orit EschelIt might be even more important.

14:03Lea WernliYeah.

14:04Orit EschelI think it's good for everyone.

14:07Lea WernliYeah.

14:09Orit EschelMetaphors and the vis— I talk with a lot of people and they tell me how much the visualization part also helps them to understand. Yeah.

14:19Lea WernliTotally.

14:19Orit EschelBut also, I think because, you know, the snow globe is good for everyone to understand, but for people who have snowstorms, it's even more important. Yeah.

14:30Lea WernliBecause we have like every day and we have it even when it there is nothing going on. And that's the very crazy thing sometimes. Yeah.

14:39Orit EschelSo I think it really helps, you know, to understand that the thing, you know, what is the thing that shakes? It's like, it helps us to see maybe what's the thing that shakes.

14:48Lea WernliYeah.

14:49Orit EschelThe snow globe.

14:50Lea WernliYeah.

14:51Orit EschelAnd yeah.

14:51Lea WernliI love that. Actually, that was one of your first insights, wasn't it? Like, in a way that you're not your thinking or Do I really have to do that?

15:01Orit EschelI was always a researcher of thoughts, no matter what I did. So I think these things were very, very helpful. I'm like, oh no, someone else is coming. Hi.

15:15Lea WernliSo, so how do you, how do you talk about the snow globe with your clients? How, how do you describe it? Like, with someone who has a lot of storms?

15:27Orit EschelI don't know at the moment. You know, lately I didn't really use it lately, but I did make a video about it a few years ago. And I think it was the one that people liked the most that I showed it. And, you know, I think what changed when I speak to people, I don't really hang, you know, at the beginning, it was very helpful for me to have a few metaphors and I really stuck by them. And now it's more what's coming up and what's good for the person at the moment in relation to what they say. But I guess now if I would have to—

16:07Lea WernliYeah.

16:09Orit EschelHere, I'll go the ATP way, just around.

16:13Lea WernliYeah, yeah, yeah.

16:14Orit EschelI'm making a dolphin, like a round gesture with my hand. But I was talking to someone yesterday and I didn't know her before. And she told me she also, she has a young baby, like a few months months old and she was, she always had depression and she said she has postpartum and she talked about all kinds of things and it started talking about money. And then, you know, once I could tell her, you know what, I could really identify with a lot of what you said and started to talk about this and she was like, oh my God, you know, you're describing me.

16:55And with some things that she had no idea about. Like also this internal conflict between, you know, being ambitious and wanting to do things and having so many ideas and decide that the side that tells you no, like this, that really wants autonomy. The side that is really, needs autonomy. And yet is really afraid of commitment, which is very, very difficult.

17:28Lea WernliYes.

17:29Orit EschelAnd I told her, because I told her about this, like, I will, I'm trying, I'm trying to hold myself not to go into too many circular paths. But just, it was so amazing to see her, like, her eyes lighting up first to see this feeling of understanding.

17:51Lea WernliYeah.

17:51Orit EschelYou know, of like feeling seen and known and, you know, this, oh, you know, I'm not alone in this thing.

17:58Lea WernliYes.

17:58Orit EschelYou know, and there's something else. And just the fact that I could say, I understand this and I can tell you that it can feel different.

18:06Lea WernliYes.

18:06Orit EschelAnd also just to explain, right now it's easier for me to use the metaphor of like a house with an alarm system. And that for some people, especially when we are more tired or, you know, more exhausted or a little stressed, it's just that the alarm system goes off not when someone breaks into the house, but sometimes when a leaf, you know, from the tree nearby just kind of drops.

18:40Lea WernliMm-hmm.

18:41Orit EschelAnd for other people, it's like, Why is your alarm system going off because of the leaf? They don't even notice the leaf. It's like, what happened here? Why are you overreacting? Why are you so sensitive? Why are you being dramatic? And so this helps. This is the connection to the snow globe. Okay, what's causing it? For some people, sometimes what causes this storm Like the hand that, uh, the hand that holds the snow globe is just kind of moving without even noticing because of nothing.

19:21Lea WernliYeah.

19:22Orit EschelNothing.

19:22Lea WernliYeah.

19:22Orit EschelIt's just that our, sometimes our, um, survival mode kicks in into full power because of like what seems like nothing.

19:34Lea WernliYeah.

19:34Orit EschelAnd it's so helpful to know that.

19:37Lea WernliYeah.

19:38Orit EschelIt's helpful to know that. It's helpful to know, you know, that the fact that it feels dangerous is not real danger.

19:47Lea WernliYeah.

19:47Orit EschelSo we can recognize this and then it can help us also to kind of like, okay, I'm not going to move this snow globe now. I don't have to, you know, go out into the storm.

20:00Lea WernliYeah. And interact with your thinking or story or anxious or whatever. behavior comes up. Yeah. Yeah.

20:09Orit EschelI told someone last week, also someone like a neighbor who I just sat with on a Sunday morning on the, you know, people that you see on the, in the house, like in the building for years, but then after that, you actually have a deeper conversation and it was really deep actually. And because he's been going through a breakup and he's been, you know, feeling bad. And I told him something about low quality thinking. And he was like, oh, that's good. And he took out his notebook and wrote it down. Oh, this is—

20:46Lea WernliI love that.

20:48Orit EschelSo it's like recognizing that you have low quality thinking. Yeah.

20:52Lea WernliAmazing. Yeah. And it's, that's enough and a lot and it changes something within and that's just this magical part of it. Oh, there is a possibility of low quality thinking. Oh, I mean, yeah, it's not real.

21:13Orit EschelIt's low quality. Or even just, you know, even just if I go on with the metaphor of the house with Lawrence.

21:21Lea WernliI like that. Yeah.

21:22Orit EschelThe way that I explained it also to her, also this house itself, what is this house? Like we're born within this field, open field. And then you hear some things and you start building a room and this room gets so, you know, this house gets so tight. And you don't realize that this house is made out, like, what is it made out of? So it's like understanding these things, like, okay, this snow globe.

21:54Lea WernliYeah.

21:55Orit EschelThe alarm system. Oh, and this alarm system that it's like for nothing, that kicks in the survival mode and the alarm mode. It's actually rocking the house that is made out of—

22:06Lea WernliThinking, of thought, condition.

22:10Orit EschelAnd all these things, we can do something about them once we see it.

22:14Lea WernliYes.

22:15Orit EschelLike your house can get bigger.

22:16Lea WernliYeah.

22:17Orit EschelOr sometimes your house shrinks.

22:20Lea WernliYeah.

22:20Orit EschelEspecially with kids. I think it's one of the things that we learn, like things can get out of hand very, very quickly. But we can also, when we allow ourselves to also quickly get back into balance, wow, that's such a gift.

22:37Lea WernliIt is. And probably that helped me the most with the kids, like this starting to really understand when I'm not engaging in my storm or in my panicking or in my survival strategies or thinking, I'm coming back very quickly and I see the next step. I know what helps. I, I just, it, it really completely changed my, my engagement with my kids, like to not to educate them anymore out of whatever the heck is going on on my side.

23:17Orit EschelI'm laughing because, you know, I have the tendency to do it, but it's like, yeah.

23:22Lea WernliSo what? Yeah.

23:24Orit EschelAnd they know how to shut it down.

23:25Lea WernliI know.

23:26Orit EschelThey're smart.

23:27Lea WernliThey're smart. And that's what I told them at the beginning as well. I told them, hey, look, sometimes I have the stormy thinking. Sometimes I'm not in a good— I'm in low mood thinking. So, and then they started to tell me off like, hey, you are in the snow globe. You have the storm.

23:48Orit EschelOh, that's good. Yeah. I didn't manage, you know. We were in Athens in Super Coach Academy and I actually brought this Greece, Athens theme snow globe. Yeah, as a gift. I think my daughter was 1 at the time and mine 5. I think it broke on the same day or the next day. So it's like, it's not good, you know, these things don't work with them. It's like almost like symbolic that, yeah, it helps. Don't speak metaphors with us, you know. With them, it's, um, the attitude that it's modeling.

24:24Lea WernliMm-hmm.

24:25Orit EschelIf you want to show us something, just try to model it.

24:28Lea WernliYeah. I like that, that you exactly point that out because it's not for everyone the same. Not at all. But what, what for me was really helpful is really also to realize where am I when I want to teach them? So if I'm like in the low mood thinking or wanting things, then of course it never, ever works out.

24:54Orit EschelAnd that's when we're most fond of teach. Of course.

24:57Lea WernliAnd it's never then. But for me, it was clear. I really have to admit that. I knew my boys will not leave this house without knowing the things, even metaphorically, the principles, like all of it. I was like, I'm still, I'm committed to that in a way, because that's still, it's— It's The best thing I've learned, like in the way of shortcut. It's not the only thing, of course not, I've learned.

25:32Orit EschelThe question is, how much did it cost you? Because I'm just kidding. To learn, $7 will change your life forever.

25:43Lea WernliYes. And for nothing. Yes, they get it. And I mean, it already changed my boy's life, my The one told me recently, just a couple of months ago, he said, look, I wouldn't have had like this chilled, cool teenage years without the things you, you've seen and changed and teach me.

26:05Orit EschelSo this is amazing. Yeah, I want— I wanted to just go back to this, uh, joke about the dollar.

26:12Lea WernliYes, I heard it.

26:14Orit EschelNo, also, I, I actually did tell this, uh, to also to this person yesterday I talked to her and I told her, you know, my friend Lea and I, we have this new hobby of sending each other all these advertising posts of people selling things from between $7 to $997, or I don't know, $10,000, always with this promise of 6 figures, 7 figures. And, you know, sometimes I think of a person who takes things very literally. It took me time to And this, I see these things and, you know, it works on me at the first moment.

26:52Oh, you know, maybe, you know, this will be the thing. And at the same time, morally, and also being literal, I know that I will never be able to promise these things and I don't want to promise these things.

27:08Lea WernliNo.

27:08Orit EschelBut I told her what I do know for sure, and this doesn't cost any money, is that Things can change the way that we feel about things. We can see things in a different way. We can react in it. We can respond in a different way. We can react in a different way. You know, there are these basic things. It doesn't matter all the things that we do and coach on afterwards.

27:32Lea WernliNo.

27:33Orit EschelBut these are really the basic things that change everything. It doesn't cost any money.

27:42Lea WernliI love that.

27:42Orit EschelI will give you everything.

27:44Lea WernliYeah.

27:44Orit EschelDoesn't matter.

27:46Lea WernliNo, I know. And just to say that. And this I can promise.

27:52Orit EschelNo, but this is, I was like, this is the thing that I promise. Yeah.

27:56Lea WernliYes. Yeah. And actually I had this little insight yesterday. Guys, this is exactly how we talk. We have another 5 minutes. We talk exactly like that. When we coach each other, it's a little different. We can do another one when we some— one coaches the other. But when we talk, we let ourselves loose in a way. Like, both of us are— we just are allowed to, to jump, to say things, to interact in, in this way. And that's very cool and very freeing. And it's really—

28:32Orit EschelFresh.

28:34Lea WernliProbably it, it's fresh. Yeah, it's fresh. And it's just nice to have a space. So let yourself loose with people and, and enjoy it and be yourself with of it. So that's very cool for me, and I think for Ori too. And what I wanted to say, that was again a little detour, I watched Too Much. Um, it's a series, a new one from—

28:58Orit EschelI'm also watching it now.

29:00Lea WernliYeah, it's very cool. And what I just thought, oh, that would have been me without— yeah, without consciously changing in a way. But what I've seen and what I really loved is exactly what you said, they changed. consciously or unconsciously on their way of becoming, um, a couple. And like all these incidences on the way, they, they change because they're human and they saw things and they learned and they evolved. And without being in personal development psychology, or yeah, they were somehow but not really, but through life.

29:42And that's so cool. And that's so hopeful because we have the ability, as Ulrike just said, to see things fresh and new and different and change always. That was nice. Yeah.

29:57Orit EschelAnd I would just like to add, if we had time or if we have another time, I think what could be really cool to talk about is also like in a lot of things. You and I, we have a lot of things in common, but a lot of things that are also different.

30:13Lea WernliYeah.

30:14Orit EschelIt's, you know, human.

30:15Lea WernliOf course.

30:16Orit EschelBut even just to talk about the way I think that we came across the principles, because it was through the same book.

30:26Lea WernliYes.

30:27Orit EschelBut we went through very different ways with it.

30:31Lea WernliYes.

30:31Orit EschelEven though we both recognize the same things that we talk about.

30:35Lea WernliYeah.

30:36Orit EschelBut we went through a different way with it.

30:40Lea WernliTotally.

30:41Orit EschelAnd I think it would be really important to talk about this so people can, you know, recognize themselves in the different ways.

30:52Lea WernliYeah.

30:53Orit EschelAnd to know that, you know, there are just different ways and it's all okay.

30:57Lea WernliYeah, totally.

30:59Orit EschelAnd I think that could be interesting.

31:03Lea WernliYeah, so I will ask my other friend if it's okay to invite my other friend again.

31:08Orit EschelYou can tell us how, you know, she— I think she was the one who gave you the book.

31:14Lea WernliYes, actually it was Shelia. Yeah, and it was the book, um, The Space Within from Michael Neal. Just who wants to reread it or read it, um, I will put it in the show notes. So I will put also Orit in the show notes and you will find her and you, you can interact with her. And she's, she's just a very cool, very deep, very intelligent woman and coach. And I love that she talks about money at the moment a lot. And maybe, um, there is something fresh. That's very fresh.

31:53Orit EschelYeah, that's something new, completely new for me, and very surprisingly feels surprisingly appropriate.

31:59Lea WernliYeah, it's cool. So reach out and talk to her. She is really, really, really a very cool and dear human to me. So thank you so much for it. Hey, that was fun. Yeah, it was. So, dear human out there, um, maybe you heard something, maybe you thought, what is this? These two, two crazy ladies just talking whatever they want to talk about. But maybe it resonated, and maybe you felt something, or you recognized yourself. And whatever it is, you're totally, completely fine the way you are. And thank you for listening. And hear you, see you— no, not see you, and but maybe, um, you will hear us soon again. And bye-bye.

32:54Orit EschelBye.