51 – Grace, Friendship, and Finding Hope When the World Feels Heavy

0:01Lea WernliHello again. It's time for you and time for us, actually. Today again, I did ask Shelia Stevens, my co-host and lovely friend, if I could record another episode with Orit Eshel, another lovely friend. So that's what we are doing because of course Shelia said yes. I'm Lia Wernli, if you don't know me. I'm in Switzerland and Orit is in Berlin today. And actually, I know a lot of people do not like the city that much anymore, but I'm kind of still in love with Berlin, so I'm happy that—

0:44Orit EschelCome again.

0:46Lea WernliShe is. I will, I will, I will tell you after when I'm coming. I already decided. So actually, we had quite a funny morning because we said we had the talk yesterday. You don't hear it like one after another. You hear it like in 2 weeks in between. But we said, yeah, let's do it. And we could say tomorrow, or we could talk tomorrow again. And we were like, yeah, perfect. And then we decided like in the middle of the night and in the morning, and I was still in bed.

1:24And I did put my phone away and I slept till the moment. And then it was a bit rocky because I had to get up really quickly. And then Orit had also a little emergency in the morning. So here we are, like, I have my first coffee with you guys and with Orit.

1:48Orit EschelI had cold tea from yesterday.

1:51Lea WernliYeah. So now we just dive in. We don't care because what we do here is being ourselves, like just the way we are, to let you be your authentic self, or a little bit of it, or just being with us for a moment in this space. So hey, hello.

2:14Orit EschelActually, what's better than just, you know, Meeting a friend when you're upset, just spending time together. That's like—

2:22Lea WernliI know.

2:23Orit EschelYou're all right.

2:24Lea WernliYes, it is. Ah, it is. And maybe it's always just, hey, let's meet the friend. And if there is no friend, be your friend. I don't know, like being human, being friendly, being together. That's so cool and healing. And yeah.

2:51Orit EschelYeah. This actually brings up, yeah, not what I thought we would talk about, but it's always like this. That I hear a lot of people, especially let's say women our age or from a certain age. And I know a lot of people who don't live in their home country. they move and they talk about how difficult it is to make friends or they feel lonely. And I think, hmm, maybe is it okay that I tell them that I actually don't have a lot of problems making friends?

3:28Or I just mean, I just learned with the years, it's actually become easier for me, but also I think because as I grow up, I actually feel lighter and younger in, in the best sense. I know for a lot of people it's not like this, but I want to tell them that it's possible. But also with the years, making friends has become so much easier because when you realize everyone is just the same, you know, our—

3:59Lea WernliYeah.

4:00Orit EschelOurselves may be different, or the things we think separate us from others may be different. Or we're embarrassed or, you know, feel shame about some things. But when we start realizing that it's actually quite, it can be quite easy to just connect on the most human level with people.

4:23Lea WernliYeah, I love that.

4:25Orit EschelYou can make friends everywhere.

4:27Lea WernliYeah, totally.

4:30Orit EschelYou can become like best friends within a short time and you can Even in our age, you know, you can feel like you've known someone for a long time, even if it's just a little time.

4:39Lea WernliYeah, it's true. And maybe, maybe it's also expectations. I fall in love with people all the time, like on all different levels. And I don't think that they need to stay in my life or that it has to be something different than what it is right now, like connecting and being and sharing. And then maybe there is another time and maybe there is no other time. So yeah, me too.

5:17Orit EschelThat's a very good point. Because if you think that connecting deeply with another person now will lead to you having more commitments and responsibilities that deter you from having a deep connection now.

5:35Lea WernliYes.

5:36Orit EschelWhat if it's just, it can be what it is?

5:38Lea WernliYes.

5:39Orit EschelAnd I think there's also for women, probably men too, but who are women, something else which is really important that maybe it's also younger ages or have a deeper insight into this, that if it's intimate deep connection with someone from, I would say, the other sex, but it can be any, you know, that you are attracted to. We can mistake it with romantic or sexual attraction. It could be part of it anyway. But I think what happens for a lot of people, we feel this attraction, this also sexual attraction when we have this deep intimate connection.

6:22Lea WernliYeah.

6:23Orit EschelAnd then we can mistaken them And it can take us off, like, to actually to where we don't want it to go.

6:33Lea WernliYeah.

6:34Orit EschelAnd instead of understanding that we just crave human connection, and it can come in all sorts of ways, it doesn't have to be romantic or sexual. We mistake love, I think, also love with the world. when we fall in love with the world, when you're like on the top of the mountain. I remember that from a younger age, you know, walking sometimes on the street when you feel like really connected. And because it feels so much like you feel when you fall in love when you're younger.

7:07Lea WernliYeah.

7:08Orit EschelBecause you actually let yourself, you know, everything fall, and you're in love with the world. But we mistake it with romantic sexual love. And it's— I think it's not that, you know, it's— it has, of course, things to do with each other. But like, how would relations look when we take off this expectation?

7:31Lea WernliYeah. And we just could be with each other, like, for real, for that moment in time. And I just love what you said about fall in love with life. Actually, that is what happened to me, and I did fall in love with life and human— and human beings and myself again. And at the moment, I, I realize I, I sometimes I'm almost ashamed because I still have it. I still believe. I do deeply believe in humans. and in capacity and love and hope. And then I look at the state of the world.

8:20Orit EschelYeah.

8:20Lea WernliAnd I mean, that's what connects us as well, that I'm deeply grateful that we can just exchange, like, texts and messages and being like, what the eff? What's going on in the US and in your home country? And I mean, that's just insane. To hold both of that simultaneously, like really, really still believing in the human species, like we are capable of being human, of connecting, of changing things, and seeing how— in this effed-up stormy thinking, greed, whatever is going on, that, that there is destruction and, and death and, and evil things going on.

9:27And, and like, it, it, it opens, or it, it It's edgy in a way, and it— I often feel a bit— how to explain it— really in between. And I want to not look away. I want to witness. I want to feel all of it somehow. And so, yeah.

10:04Orit EschelI think it's really helpful to have friends or colleagues, whatever, you know, people around us who are also in this, who do not want to look away.

10:15Lea WernliYeah.

10:15Orit EschelAnd look at what happens and not just, what's that word, spiritual bypass.

10:22Lea WernliOr sugarcoating or, yeah.

10:25Orit EschelOr like everything happens for And at the same time, to know that you both hold this really deep belief in human connection and in human capability and human spark and human creativity to solve things or to have a change of heart.

10:48Lea WernliYes.

10:50Orit EschelIt's really important to be able to have people to go with.

10:55Lea WernliYeah.

10:56Orit EschelWho can also kind of also help us, either help us when we're struggling, help them when—

11:03Lea WernliYeah.

11:05Orit EschelYou know, exchange all this and to be able to hold all this together because it's really difficult sometimes, especially if you are the person who looks. I'm not talking only about what we see, but also that if you are with other people who tend to look at the same difficult things and you have this itching, itch to do something about it and to drown in this, a lot of the feelings that come up can be hopelessness.

11:37Lea WernliYes.

11:38Orit EschelAnd really a lot of anger and hate and also, you know, and you need this counterbalance. Yeah. To remind you also that it doesn't necessarily, like, it's okay to feel that, but it's not going to help me to get out in this. Like, it's okay, you know, or it's okay to really care, do what I can and take time, you know, just, it's okay to also put it on the side. It doesn't mean that I care less.

12:08Lea WernliYes, totally.

12:10Orit EschelAnd it's really important.

12:12Lea WernliI know.

12:13Orit EschelI have to remind myself of this.

12:15Lea WernliYeah. And, and Just you, just you, one person, one friend who, who feels or sees it, of course not the exact same way, but in kind of the same way. It reminds me of, oh, the world is not only on my shoulders. Just you, you know what I mean? We are already 2. I know we are thousands.

12:37Orit EschelBut this helps. I always also always thought the world is on my shoulders. Yeah, my, my pains are always in my neck.

12:46Lea WernliYeah.

12:46Orit EschelAnd upper back.

12:47Lea WernliYeah, I know. And, and just to, to share like 2 shoulders, that's probably, um, is— it does already do something. And, and really also that this— we all are able to, to do whatever makes sense to us in this moment. So it's not less when we are not in the streets, it's not, um, more when we could donate like thousands. It's not— it's always like one, one thing that we can do right now and being capable of living and providing for our loved ones and our lives. So also to, to invite people or to, to have prices on my coaching sometimes feels strange because everything is really different. So, but I— what, what we both saw in a way is also we need women, we need people, we need good people.

14:00Orit EschelGood people.

14:01Lea WernliAnd men, of course, who are capable, who have money to give if they want to for good causes.

14:08Orit EschelSo, um, I understand more and more the last few months, like, there's actually so much money in the world, like, for— but how will the world look if there— if it goes more through women's hands, like, this energy? Not only that, like, not only money energy, but leadership energy. And yeah, like, to bring more women to the table to make the decisions. It always seems to me like we have really crazy people. People are, let's say, who I think they're disconnected from their spark within.

14:41Lea WernliYes.

14:41Orit EschelAnd it's almost like I feel like saying, no, they keep on answering the same questions, but we need someone like asking other questions.

14:52Lea WernliYes.

14:52Orit EschelNot only answering the different answers, but asking other questions. Even, you know, just looking at things completely differently. And if we have more women who have more, they have easier time to just say what they think.

15:07Lea WernliYes.

15:07Orit EschelNot so much afraid and know that even just a little, it's not all or nothing.

15:13Lea WernliYeah.

15:15Orit EschelYou don't need to have like all the research behind it to say, okay, I think this is morally or ethically or humanly okay.

15:27Lea WernliYeah. Okay. Yeah.

15:31Orit EschelYou know, I once heard on the radio in Israel something about that, you know, you hear less women, even if it's more or less women on talk shows and interviews on television and radio. And that's also because when women are asked to participate, if it's not, if it doesn't fall into their exact niche and research, like let's say even doctors, academics, you know, they say, oh, No, it's not my field. You know, I can't. And they also think, oh, I'm not sure if I can come to the interview. It's in the evening. I have to be with the kids. And men would, you know, wouldn't even think about saying yes, even if it's just next to their field of expertise.

16:21Lea WernliYes.

16:21Orit EschelAnd they wouldn't think if they can be there in the evening. So that woman who I heard on the radio, she made a database of women, you know, who can speak about some things so that people, producers can call them and not just call the regular people.

16:39Lea WernliYeah, I love that.

16:40Orit EschelSo I think like we need, yeah, it's on a really big scale.

16:45Lea WernliWe need different questions for different answers. And, and, and this unknown is scary for a lot of people because we don't know. And to, to, to be more stable or to be more attuned with the spark within, to just know I'm okay even though when I don't know it or don't know the right answer, or yeah, or when it's just when I'm one little piece of a bigger discussion and I could participate or, or give another point of view that, that could be and would be extremely helpful.

17:30So we need all of us, all of us, wherever we are. And that's— a podcast is one way to just speak into the world. Um, we can do it in thousands of possibilities. And even when you think you don't have to say Something, you always have to say something there.

17:56Orit EschelI think the thing is not because people have an opinion, it's the ability. And it reminds me a small video you sent me once. It's being able to hold cringe.

18:09Lea WernliYes, I know.

18:11Orit EschelIt's like this because we're so afraid of what other people will think of us, of course, or if they'll shun us out. Yeah, just What we're actually afraid of is us thinking about it.

18:22Lea WernliYes.

18:23Orit EschelAnd, you know, holding our face in like, oh no, what are they thinking?

18:27Lea WernliI know.

18:28Orit EschelBeing able to cringe.

18:29Lea WernliYes. I just love, I had a quote on my Facebook, I think for years even, I didn't realize it was like, what are they thinking? Or, oh, what is she thinking of me? She is thinking about herself and it's not about me, or he is thinking about himself. We are very self-absorbed, all of us, in a way.

18:57Orit EschelBut this is why I said, then we're afraid not even about each other, but about me thinking like, oh God, so how, so it's also a bit of how do we help ourselves to become more cringe-proof?

19:11Lea WernliProof. Yes.

19:12Orit EschelSo that we can actually do stuff that we want to say in the world or do in the world.

19:18Lea WernliYeah.

19:19Orit EschelHave more women politicians. And I don't mean women who try to act like they're cleaning up men. And, you know, who are not afraid to offer their services in a world when they feel like, oh no, it's not okay to offer my—

19:37Lea WernliI know.

19:38Orit EschelOr even—

19:39Lea WernliAnd also become bulletproof. There are people who think that you are whatever, not their cup of tea. And it will always be like that. Simon Soul, the one I did send you, our love language, guys, is I'm sending things to Orit and Orit is sending things to me, like memes, ADHD, political, like all day long, coaching, all of it. And Simone Soule is one of my coaches. I've been in her programs like for, for a long time, and she's really cool.

20:18Orit EschelYeah, she has, um, she's, she's really expressing the things in such a good way.

20:23Lea WernliUh, really, really good. Like, I love it. I'm just not that good in that part of, of— I'm, I'm learning. I'm—

20:32Orit EschelYou don't have— you're good in what you do.

20:34Lea WernliYeah, I know. And I— but I still like it, and, and I still want to to try it out. Sometimes I did, actually. It went totally southways. I did it with emails and stuff. I wanted to invite people to a coach training, and I do it normally like the Prosperous Coach way. Like, I invite, I talk to the people, and I fill my programs. I have coachees, and I wanted to do it more like, uh, another way. So And a bit like Simone Sol, she has really good marketing and, and really how to express yourself and invite people through language and stories and, and authenticity somehow. But what I wanted to say is— what did I want to say? I forgot. No, she had a little post and it was, um, it was always 30%.

21:32Orit Eschel30%.

21:33Lea WernliYeah, you knew it. I saw it in your eyes that you already knew, but 30% And like, we love you, 30% are kind of indifferent, and 30% don't like what you do. And to be with that.

21:47Orit EschelAnd that it doesn't matter what you'll do.

21:49Lea WernliNo, it doesn't matter.

21:50Orit EschelIt will be like this, which is helpful. Because then why spend the energy on not being myself?

21:55Lea WernliReally helpful.

21:56Orit EschelIt actually helped me to end the marriage once.

21:59Lea WernliTell me, tell me more.

22:01Orit EschelThere was this one time.

22:02Lea WernliTell me more.

22:04Orit EschelWhen I was married.

22:07Lea WernliOkay.

22:07Orit EschelNo, it was just about at the end, understanding that it doesn't matter what I do. It doesn't matter if I say my opinion. It didn't matter if I say what I thought he wanted to hear. It didn't matter if I didn't say anything. He was upset anyway. And so it was like, okay, there's nothing I can do anymore. I tried in all the ways. I can't take responsibility. Well, this part doesn't matter anymore, but it was the part when I realized I can't take also responsibility anymore. But it's just this, it's like, if it doesn't matter what you do, there will be the 30% who will not like it. There will be the 30% that do like it and whatever.

22:52Lea WernliYeah.

22:54Orit EschelSo let's do what's easiest and nicest for us.

22:58Lea WernliYeah.

22:59Orit EschelLike, let's be our weird self, you know.

23:02Lea WernliAnd what you'll feel, like the spark, the grace. Oh, do you remember we started out with always talking about grace? Do you remember after Athens? Oh, that's true.

23:14Orit EschelWow, I forgot about her. You have to explain.

23:18Lea WernliI don't know. I don't know what it was. I think we were in Michael Neal's class and somehow he—

23:25Orit EschelBecause there was a—

23:27Lea WernliWhy was it?

23:28Orit EschelIt was because grace, you know, we always talk, you know, it's more Christian, I think, but also it's more spiritual world. We talk about grace, the feeling of grace. There was this one person we listened to, he was coached by Michael, and he spoke about how he went and he got clinics like for, you know, for doing pedicures or something like this.

23:51Lea WernliYes.

23:51Orit EschelHe practiced doing it and how he was doing some old ladies' Then they felt this grace, you know. Yes. Um, but we started using it and we thought we both had the same idea of, uh, having, I think, like these paintings, like Where's Wally for Westphalta.

24:10Lea WernliYeah.

24:11Orit EschelAnd like, where's Grace now? Yes. And like, it's everywhere.

24:14Lea WernliIt's everywhere.

24:16Orit EschelAnd we were—

24:17Lea Wernliwe had this really something. And how she looked purple here, she was a little Punk. Yes.

24:23Orit EschelAnd she had this, this purple hair. That's right. We both saw the same thing.

24:27Lea WernliYes, I know.

24:28Orit EschelWasn't it?

24:29Lea WernliIt was like that.

24:30Orit EschelThat's so funny. I forgot about her. Me too.

24:34Lea WernliAnd we were always like, did, did you feel Grace? Was she there? So we go for it. If Grace was like, hey, tapped you on the shoulder like this mini fairy thing.

24:45Orit EschelThanks for reminding me of her.

24:48Lea WernliI love it. And it was mind. I mean, it was like this spark, this creativity, this love through us, but in a very fun, easy way. Like, did Grace come through? Was she there? Did she move her ass?

25:03Orit EschelBecause for a lot, I have to say this, for a lot of people, I had a long way with this, like coming to more spiritual things because of all this cultural or, you know, the environment you come from, all these conditioning about New Age and spirituality. And, you know, when you think about all the things you don't like about it, so come, you know, doing stuff that are by definition more spiritual. First, it took me time to understand that it's spiritual just because you can't touch it.

25:39So it makes it spiritual. But I was, you know, seeing how it helps me, but I was still really afraid of like telling other people about it because what they will think about me being spiritual, you know. So it's almost like the only way— I actually also had it in academia that I couldn't be like a serious academic. I felt that I can't because I felt like I need to say it in my words. And the only way sometimes I could kind of like talk professionally and professionally spiritually is through irony.

26:15Lea WernliYeah.

26:16Orit EschelBut with this irony, we give us— we can— we— yeah, yeah, helpful to give ourselves permission to kind of through Like, to totally mean it, but do it in a playful way, which is like, okay, I'm— Yeah.

26:29Lea WernliA bit like a distance between—

26:32Orit EschelOh, true. But then it's fun. But then it's like, you help it. It doesn't matter at the end.

26:38Lea WernliNo, that's true. So, and then you were talking, you wanted to say something around, I don't know.

26:46Orit EschelNo, it's all—

26:46Lea WernliGrace. No?

26:48Orit EschelOr spiritual things. No, we were just talking about Grace. You mean why we started with her?

26:52Lea WernliNo, no, I thought—

26:53Orit EschelNo, I thought that's right, like more women. Everyone has a grace.

26:57Lea WernliYes, of course.

26:58Orit EschelEveryone has grace.

26:59Lea WernliEveryone. Yeah. And that's the hope.

27:03Orit EschelGrace, whatever.

27:07Lea WernliYeah.

27:07Orit EschelAnd I think if more people connected to it.

27:10Lea WernliYeah.

27:11Orit EschelI don't know how much time we have, but I have, I remember the story that Bill Petit told me a few years ago. I had a few Like private coaching sessions.

27:25Lea WernliI remember. Yeah.

27:28Orit EschelAnd it was helpful. I think it was also actually, it was also helpful for me to decide to start taking antidepressants afterwards. Because before that, I had the feeling that I, just because I know the truth, it means that I have to do everything by myself. And you know, this feeling of like also the universe on your back, you also have to regulate everything by yourself. I didn't understand that having the being wise, this wisdom spark, this grace can be understanding that what can be helpful now is antidepressants.

28:05Lea WernliYes.

28:05Orit EschelOr anti-anxiety pills, for example. It helped me. But he told me a story. Let's see if I remember it. Because I struggled a lot also with the state of the world. And, you know, it felt so heavy.

28:18Lea WernliYeah.

28:19Orit EschelAnd like, what do we do about this? Like, how do I help someone when I see all these things? This connects to our conversation. And he told a story about soldiers who came to free a concentration camp at the end of the Second World War. And they found some people who survived and they all talked about some guy who helped them. And they said that he really helped them to keep their morale higher. And then he spoke to this person at the end because they all mentioned him. And this person, it turned out— I'm really bad at telling stories, but—

29:05Lea WernliI mean it.

29:08Orit EschelBut he said, because the Nazis in the camps, they shot his family. So, but he said that he decided that he didn't want to be like them, that he decided that he didn't want to drown himself in hate and being against. And he was the person who helped everyone else to feel better. And he saved their lives because of that. That was the reason. they could survive and feel better. And even if I don't really remember all the small parts of the story, and probably Bill told it in his way, but it really helped me back then to see that this, like, okay, it's really, really difficult when you want to save the world because you feel like you have to change everything so that you can help people.

30:05Lea WernliMm-hmm.

30:08Orit EschelBut no, like, we can't do that, but we can, you know, help ourselves.

30:15Lea WernliYes.

30:16Orit EschelDecide. We can decide.

30:19Lea WernliYeah.

30:19Orit EschelWhat we don't want.

30:22Lea WernliYeah.

30:23Orit EschelWhat we do want. And to be able to, you know, just be better for the people around us, hopefully.

30:29Lea WernliYes.

30:33Orit EschelIt's important for me.

30:34Lea WernliWhat I also heard, just a moment. Yeah, it's quite short. Um, one, one person at a time. Like, we can help each other, like one, like the next, like being with you and loving and helping. And I don't like the being of service word because in, in Swiss German or German, it's kind of a totally different thing in a way.

31:02Orit EschelIt sounds like being a civil servant.

31:02Lea WernliYeah, but More, yeah, more like, yeah, one in life helping in life where we are. And if we need or want to go and help in the places or in the streets or whatever, that's fine too if it's from here. And even if the spark is with anger, that's okay too. We don't have to be all love and light all the time. We still can help.

31:38Orit EschelIt shows us what's important to us.

31:40Lea WernliYes.

31:40Orit EschelIt's good to see what it serves also.

31:42Lea WernliYes.

31:43Orit EschelThis anger, this sadness, all of this shows I care about this.

31:47Lea WernliYes.

31:48Orit EschelAnd it's okay. Of course, it's okay to get angry and sad and to feel grief, to feel all of it. But it's also okay to say, I don't have to always be worried. I don't always have to be angry or sad in order to show that I care.

32:07Lea WernliYes.

32:08Orit EschelLike the one doesn't equal the other ones. It's like a lot of mothers.

32:13Lea WernliYes.

32:14Orit EschelYou know, they're really anxious about their kids because they were conditioned one way or the other that anxiety means I care. I love my kids.

32:27Lea WernliI know.

32:28Orit EschelBut you can love them and take just as much good care of them without being anxious all the time. You don't have to think about them all the time when they're in kindergarten. To be afraid, it doesn't make you a better parent.

32:43Lea WernliNo.

32:44Orit EschelAnd just the same, I struggle with this sometimes, but I have to remind myself also it's okay to just enjoy something else now. I don't care less.

32:55Lea WernliYes. Thank you for that. That's really cool.

33:00Orit EschelI love it. Also, just to convince those who are not convinced yet, especially when we don't, when our inner battery is not very big and it can drain very, very quickly.

33:14Lea WernliYes.

33:15Orit EschelWorry, for me, I see that worrying and being anxious and stressing out and it consumes my battery so fast. And then I don't have any energy. I only see more of what needs to be taken care of, but I can't do anything about this. So it's really, really important to charge the battery.

33:38Lea WernliYes.

33:39Orit EschelSo I can do things.

33:40Lea WernliYeah.

33:40Orit EschelCan I say one more thing?

33:42Lea WernliYes.

33:42Orit EschelWhich will be helpful.

33:43Lea WernliYes.

33:44Orit EschelAnd this also has to do with kids and being of help in the world.

33:48Lea WernliYes.

33:49Orit Eschelalso from my personal experience, and I'm sure for a lot of other people, because our immediate environment is our home.

33:57Lea WernliYeah.

33:57Orit EschelAnd our kids and family. And this is the place where we actually, like, things can get out of hand sometimes very quickly.

34:05Lea WernliYeah.

34:06Orit EschelLike I talked to you before we started, like, when people fight at home and we think that our home has to be perfect in order to give ourselves permission to feel like we help other people. And it's very easy to miss, to be, to get lost in this. But actually, sometimes, you know, this is the place, home is sometimes the place where, you know, we see other things that we need to solve.

34:32Lea WernliYeah.

34:32Orit EschelAnd it doesn't mean that we don't have, like, really a lot of potential, the ability in helping One person at a time or groups, even if at home, not everything is perfect.

34:48Lea WernliI love that. So thank you so much, Jorit. I loved our Sunday morning coffee conversations with a friend.

35:01Orit EschelI know I feel better now than I felt before. So that was already worth something.

35:08Lea WernliThank you so much. So for you guys, thank you for listening in, and maybe, um, you heard something, or you had just a nice time, or whatever it was. We are very grateful for you being with us and hear you next time. Bye! Bye!