61 – Why “Seeing the Innocence” Doesn’t Mean Accepting Bad Behavior

0:02Shailia StephensSo hello and welcome back to a new episode of Time 4 U. Lea and I are on the 3rd episode of today that we're batch recording, and she's just now found her microphone. Lea, are you going to try to plug it up right in the middle of a podcast? Okay, should I wait for you?

0:21Lea WernliNo, you talk.

0:22Shailia StephensOkay, well then you're not going to be able to hear me when you're switching it over. This is so funny, guys, because on the last episode we were just talking about how Leah is a fly-by-her-seat-of-the-pants kind of girl and how I'm a systematized girl. And of course, my microphone is always on my desk in the exact same place, always hooked up, and Leah is inevitably searching for hers every time we get onto a call. And sometimes she finds it and sometimes she doesn't. And today, um, it has popped up on episode 3. Where was it, Leah?

0:55Lea WernliUm, I don't know. It was in a bag because I said I, I brought it to holidays, to my holidays. So I was like, ah, maybe it's in a bag. And it was in a bag.

1:07Shailia StephensIt was in a bag.

1:09Lea WernliOkay, so almost ready. What are we talking about today? We wanted to tell you guys something quite important.

1:19Shailia StephensYeah, so, uh-huh. Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna put it in the category of, um, empowerment.

1:29Lea WernliMm-hmm.

1:29Shailia StephensAnd, and the only reason I'm putting it into that category is because, you know, I've been teaching some classes in Africa recently, and, um, they've been in women's groups. So we've got one women's group going in the, um, Nakivale refugee settlement in Uganda, and we've got one women's group going, um, with, um, some women in Tanzania. Leah, can you still hear me?

1:57Lea WernliYes, I can.

1:58Shailia StephensOkay, good. I can hear you now too. So, um, they've all been around women's empowerment topics, and one of the things that kept coming up, or that keeps coming up in conversations, were things like, Shelly-Ann, next week on Friday, can you talk to us about saying no? Like, how can we say no when we have a no inside of our heart, but then we see ourselves saying yes?

2:28Lea WernliMm-hmm.

2:30Shailia StephensUm, there are topics coming up like, well, one of the things we talk about especially a lot in the refugee camp, but not only, also in Tanzania in a different sort of cultural environment, is about forgiveness and people forgiving really bad things that were done to them and then getting in situations with people where bad things are happening to them again, and they're in the misunderstanding of, well, if I'm supposed to be forgiving, am I supposed to forgive this person even though they keep doing this bad thing to me?

3:07And no is the answer. That's, that's not the point. So today we just wanted to talk about this idea of not getting confused, not confusing compassion, um, inner knowing, understanding, like whatever the thing it is, spirituality, um, with shitty behavior, or not covering up shitty behavior with your understanding or with compassion when it's just quite obviously not good. So I'll just stop there and let Leah go and we'll see where it leads us. Leah?

3:51Lea WernliYeah, actually, you already said it. And sometimes it seems suddenly complicated. You know what I mean? Because we feel better or because we always come back to love or because we are able to forgive when we start to see that we feel our thinking and that we are not broken. Nobody is. That everybody is love or, or mind, um, in, in their core. So we, we start to see like the real, um, essence of person or of a person or of people. And, and we And the capacity for compassion, for self-compassion or compassion for somebody else, grows often over time.

4:56But that doesn't mean that we have to put up with people who are behaving themselves badly, who are going over our boundaries, or not accepting the nos, or manipulating us. violating or are violent or whatever is, um, is going on. And yes, of course, we can see from where it comes, and we can see, oh, they're acting out of their inner turmoil and the misunderstanding, um, that somebody else or something else is, um, is the cause of their problems or their bad feelings, or that they're anxious or angry, and from there they're acting out.

5:54Shailia StephensOr from ego.

5:55Lea WernliOr ego, yes, of course. And ego is, for me, ego is red. Like being green, being orange, being red, really ego, really seeing myself and my ideas and everything I do as the only right thing is a form of turmoil and storm, stormy thinking. So just because we see it, just because we understand it better, doesn't mean that we have to be okay with somebody behaving like that.

6:32Shailia StephensMm-hmm.

6:33Lea WernliAnd interestingly, Um, maybe, maybe there is a second step that we, we need to acknowledge as well, that we need to learn things on this path. That just came to me when I was speaking. Like, maybe the seeing is like a first thing. And because we did put up with bad behavior, because something bad maybe happened to us, because there could be trauma or a story or also really bad things that happened, we haven't learned how to also act on our inner knowing.

7:25Shailia StephensMm-hmm.

7:26Lea WernliAnd maybe maybe we need, need certain time to learn that and to be also to, to build up the capacity to be with this, um, with this a little insecure feelings of doing things a new way.

7:48Shailia StephensMm.

7:50Lea WernliYou know what I mean? That's just what just came, like this Oh, we start to see that. Oh, we start to feel that's not okay, and we don't have the skills.

8:05Shailia StephensMm-hmm.

8:07Lea WernliTo execute the nos, or to, to walk away, or to set the boundaries, or to really going through with it. And maybe that takes also time.

8:23Shailia StephensMm-hmm.

8:23Lea WernliBut to be aware, to see it, to feel, and then also to, to be a learner in that field, and maybe to fail, and maybe to fuck it up, and maybe to not be, oh, that comfortable in the new role of, hey, no, yeah, I see you, I hear you, and No. Or, here is the limit. Or, no, you said something else then, and now you're acting like that here. No.

9:01Shailia StephensMm-hmm.

9:02Lea WernliOr, I— when you hit once, for me, that's the end. Or whatever, whatever the boundaries or the new level or the new boundary might be.

9:18Shailia StephensYeah.

9:19Lea WernliYou know what I mean?

9:20Shailia StephensYes, of course I know what you mean. Like, yes, you and I were talking about this before we even got started with the podcast today. You know, I was telling Leah, I grew up in a family where there was a lot of shouting, a lot of hitting, less manipulation. I think, you know, it was pretty open and clear that, you know, people just were getting in a really red state on the inside and with a lot of anger and lack of self-control, not understanding their own inner world and just, you know, projecting that out into others.

9:59And, you know, me included from the time I was little. And me growing up in a family where, you know, it just became the norm for me that people acted badly, that shitty behavior was going on all day, every day around me in some form or another through, you know, different family members. And me sort of internalizing it is like, this is just how things are. And as an adult, and Leah and I have been in a friendship for many years and a long time, and one of the things that's really different about us is that Leah has a very quick internal, you know, here's a red flag, here's a limit, here's a stop.

10:41And she won't put up with it. She just like puts down the line really quickly. And whereas I will just let stuff sometimes go on and on and on, not even necessarily out of toleration so much as that it takes me longer to see it because it's in my, you know, area of normality. So to see it as abnormal is not correct, you know, as not correct. And Then I also spent my whole life, you know, in that space of trying to be— let's see how I can put this in words— just having a loving heart.

11:23Lea WernliMm-hmm.

11:24Shailia StephensAnd as a child, like a little girl, just wanting things in my family to be harmonious and loving and connected. And trying to be the person who, with the compassion or with the connecting, like kind of filling the gap that the adults couldn't, fill. So I tried to make things okay. And I was a really good girl. Because also when things, when things were going badly, it would often not just hurt me, but my siblings, my mother. So I would try to just bring everything back into harmony by being a good girl. So that's my, my skill.

12:02Lea WernliYes.

12:03Shailia StephensThat's the skill I learned. That's the old way of doing things. So when you say that, Leah, And that's sometimes the thing I struggle with even today, you know, being the strong and confident woman that I am, still working from the old skill set of just being the good girl.

12:20Lea WernliMm-hmm.

12:20Shailia StephensLike, just trying to fill the gap where other people are misbehaving and make everything okay. And the more that life goes on, the more I don't want those old skills being at play in my life. I see I need new skills. to say no, to set clearer boundaries and stick to them, to not, to, to not tolerate shitty behavior more, but more quickly.

12:45Lea WernliYeah.

12:46Shailia StephensAnd, um, and that's a real area of learning for me. So that's what I hear when you say that.

12:53Lea WernliI love that. Could you describe like the, the things you heard in that podcast as well, just for people also who, who are like second-guessing themselves. Sometimes people second-guess because they think, oh, I feel it, something is off, because manipulative behavior or shitty behavior, but kind of like in, in a, in a disguise. Or, um, I, I thought that was really interesting because actually we were talking about that as well. Shelly as well, not always, but As, as longer you are in the, like, the awareness and the 3 principles and changing, like, from the inside out, you, you started to feel, hmm, that, that's not okay, or that's off, or that's weird, but couldn't put, like, fingers on it sometimes with certain things.

13:56Shailia StephensI didn't have names for it. I didn't know what it was.

13:59Lea WernliYes. And, and sometimes that's very helpful to have a name and not And we can let it go at the end again. It's always like shitty thinking that turns into shitty behavior in the end. The more we start to be trustworthy in ourselves somehow, we start to listen to ourselves, like underneath the good girls or bad girls or whoever we are as a default.

14:32Shailia StephensMm-hmm.

14:33Lea WernliWe, we have like a navigation. We know.

14:36Shailia StephensYeah.

14:37Lea WernliYeah. Underneath, we have stormy thinking as well, and we do, do crazy things, and we are not always nice, of course, all of us. But when we want to be like loving and in a way integer, and we have integrity, or, or we want to not hurt people, We, we can train this navigation and we start to see it. We start to feel, um, no, hey, oh. And maybe we can look again and then we see it even better. But we wanted to share with you guys this kind of names or behavior that, that sometimes are not that obvious, but you can trust. the feeling that you have beneath. We have it, we know it. And when you have it again and again, when you are in a neutral state or loving state, just trust that.

15:39Shailia StephensYeah. So yeah, I think you're talking about the podcast I heard about stalking. Yes, the one you— yeah, yeah. Okay, well, so before I, before I talk about that, I wanted to say, you know, It's so funny because when you were talking, I had a little kind of aha moment, which was sometimes we can feel things from within. Let's say, let's say from the deeper place within us. Like you said, that feeling that something is off, but I can't put my finger on it, but you feel it's just off.

16:08Yeah. And then you have your intellect, right? This gray mass of material between your two ears, this brain, wherever you think the brain lives. Some scientists say maybe even that your thoughts aren't in your brain, they're coming from somewhere else. So I mean, but let's take it as a metaphor. And sometimes your brain and your deeper place, they have to work together. They have to come to a common understanding, right?

16:34Lea WernliThat's true.

16:35Shailia StephensAnd so if you— if your intellectual mind doesn't have concepts or words for things that are happening, you can be feeling something is off, but your intellect isn't understanding what it is.

16:47Lea WernliHmm.

16:48Shailia StephensSo I think that that's what this did for me. I heard a lady on a podcast talking about stalking and she said stalking is coercive control combined together with slow murder. I mean, that sounds really extreme, but a lot of very bad stalking cases do go over, you know, 6, 7 years and end up in someone killing someone else. That's why Um, but so for me, it wasn't the slow murder. It was the coercive control. It was something that she said that resonated with me in that word.

17:22And I was like, whoa, I feel there's a situation going on in my life where I'm experiencing something that sounds like coercive control, but I've never heard this word before. What is this? And I went on, um, my AI tool on Perplexity and I just looked up, uh, some stuff. And I think we're— what Leah's talking about, like some of the things I, I made a list the other day, which is what I'm, what I'm looking at right now.

17:44Lea WernliMm-hmm.

17:44Shailia Stephensright now, which is just like there's some types of manipulative behavior. So let's just use the word manipulation, where someone is telling you one thing, um, and but they're acting out of, uh, not an honest place, um, and they're doing something entirely different. And it seems confusing with you, for you, because Or for me, because I'm the kind of person, if I look at someone's face and they're— they look friendly and they look like they're saying something kind and loving, or they have a good intention, um, that's what I like to see.

18:26That's where my mind is going. But in, in fact, they're manipulating me into a place. They know exactly what to say to me. They've, they've understood how I work as a human being, what I value, um, what I care about. And they're saying things that seem to match those values and, and that care, but actually what they're doing is the opposite. And so that was one thing that, that I read under the coercive control. Um, another thing is this, um, the gaslighting. I don't know if you guys have heard this terminology, but it's when someone makes you doubt your own reality.

19:08Lea WernliHmm.

19:08Shailia StephensUm, when they They say they are acting from a loving space and that, I don't know, they're coming from a spiritual knowing. I'm just making something up. And you can see that in reality, the opposite is true. It's just not that. And they're trying to convince you through their words that you're just misseeing things. You're not understanding what's going on. You have— you're confused. And you start to doubt your own reality, or your own ability to see what is reality. Things like that.

19:51Lea WernliMm-hmm.

19:52Shailia StephensIsolating people from each other, saying— going to one person and saying, don't talk to Shellya, and going to Shellya and saying, don't talk to Peter. That's part of the coercive control. So, I mean, guys, look it up on your AI. But It— there's more, but it just, it gave me just words. And suddenly, my intellect was able to recognize patterns of behavior that I was already feeling from my inner knowing were off. And then when those 2 things came together, I kind of was like, oh, oh, this is, this is so obvious. Right? Tell me what you're hearing in that, Leah.

20:35Lea WernliI like that. I like that because sometimes we, we can't understand why we are not acting, or, or why we, why we put up with behavior, or why. And there are layers and different possibilities, but probably that is one, like not, not having a tool, not having a— having words, not seeing Oh, and as you said, your default behavior was good girl behavior. So you did excuse a lot of bad behavior in your past. And you had to.

21:21Shailia StephensYes.

21:22Lea WernliOf course, because you were vulnerable and a girl and you had to live there. So you had to cope. And this coping mechanism or strategies do not help now, because now you have to see and find out why you don't want to put up with that behavior.

21:45Shailia StephensYes.

21:45Lea WernliSo having words could help, and I just heard that and, and saw you seeing that, and having words could help, and, and Learning to, like, with tiny steps, to set the boundaries, to, to holding on to the no, to reaching out to friends, to—

22:13Shailia StephensYes.

22:14Lea WernliNot butting yourself. And what do I mean with butting yourself? You feel it, you feel that it's off, that—

22:21Shailia StephensYou say, yeah, but—

22:23Lea WernliBut then, yeah, but yeah. Like, and then talking yourself out of it because you're afraid, because you're insecure, because it's new, because you don't have the skill set for leaving or quitting or going. And what just came to my mind is, and you don't need to have the full skill set to leave.

22:46Shailia StephensMm-hmm.

22:47Lea WernliYou just need to do the next step. You just need to trust that the off feeling you have is valid. You just need to trust that you will find a way out. So maybe it's there.

23:06Shailia StephensIt certainly is there. I think that that is so true, Lea. And I think that, and sometimes you're just not there yet in your, in your inside that you can, that you can trust that. And some of the things that have been helpful for me in the past, just in our friendship, Leah, you know, we've had some situations where someone was just like a total criminal energy. And you were like, this person has criminal energy. And I'm like, what are you talking about?

23:32I don't see it, you know? And you're like, here's— I'm cutting this person off in 5 seconds and it's done. And I'm like, 6 months later, still talking to this person and then realizing at some point, oh, that's what Leah meant. So, you know, when you don't have—

23:47Lea WernliYes.

23:47Shailia StephensReal eyes for it, and you're not maybe even getting a gut feeling sometimes, But what helped me also in this situation was reaching out to someone.

23:56Lea WernliYeah.

23:56Shailia StephensAnd because my inner wisdom says, something's off. You're not knowing what to do with it. And I heard inside myself, go get some help. And so I reached out to some, you know, someone to talk to. And that person talked to me about this stuff and said, look, this is not okay. You know, they were seeing it with different eyes, not coming from an abusive childhood and all of the normalization around that. And so you can trust your inner wisdom to tell you the next step.

24:25Lea WernliYes.

24:26Shailia StephensIf something's feeling off and you can't name it, you can't see it, but you will feel maybe something like, go talk to that person or, you know, do that. Yeah. And, you know, Leah, I have to say, I'm so on a journey, like my whole adult life. To more and more feel that inner wisdom, more and more to follow it without question. Um, it's a journey.

24:57Lea WernliIt is. Oh, it is. Yes. And, and to end that as well with, of course, the other person is love too.

25:09Shailia StephensYes.

25:10Lea WernliAnd is not broken, but if she or he or them shows behavior that are not okay and that are threatening, you don't have to put up with it. No. And that doesn't mean that they're not valuable or anything else, but, um, that's not an excuse.

25:33Shailia StephensAbsolutely. You can still love them from a distance. You can still be compassionate with them from a distance. You can forgive them Uh, you can forgive yourself, you know. Yeah. Um, all of that is possible, and you don't have to put up with the shitty behavior.

25:53Lea WernliYes. So that was our probably near to Christmas episode.

25:58Shailia StephensOh my gosh, what a—

26:00Lea WernliThat's very interesting around family members and relatives. So just, um, yeah, have a look for yourself and Feel into that.

26:11Shailia StephensYeah.

26:12Lea WernliAnd let us know.

26:13Shailia StephensYeah, definitely let us know. Um, thank you for listening. Thank you for being a part of our lives and, and showing up to spend time with us. Um, to take, to take time for yourself. It is such a joy and a privilege to walk, uh, steps with you in this life, and we're so grateful for that. Leah, I'm so grateful for you. I love you so much. And, um, thanks for the podcast day. It's been so much fun.

26:41Lea WernliYes.

26:42Shailia StephensWe always have a good blast, and we will hear you back, uh, online again on Time for You in the next episode. Until then, bye!