08 – Shifting Perspectives: From Realism to Hope in the Face of Loss

0:03Shailia StephensHello and welcome back to a new episode of Time for You, where you get to just unplug from your daily life and listen in. Maybe you're doing your laundry. A lot of times I love to listen to podcasts while I'm folding clothes and putting the wash in.

0:20Lea WernliMe too.

0:20Shailia StephensSo if you're doing that, awesome. Otherwise, so glad to see you. My name is Shelia Stevens, and this is my beautiful colleague, Leah Van Lee.

0:31Lea WernliHi.

0:31Shailia StephensSo we're continuing on our little experiment of real talk today, where we just kind of talk about our lives and where we are, like, just kind of the way Leah and I would talk to each other if you weren't here, in a way. And so Leah, the thing I want to talk about today is a kind of a heavy topic, but I'm not scared of heavy topics. And I know you're not scared of heavy topics. And it's kind of about between hope and life and death is the topic that we could jam on today. So, you know me for quite a long time, and you know that I have kind of some heavy experiences with the topic of death.

1:22Lea WernliMm-hmm. I Yeah.

1:28Shailia StephensI had a period of time between 2004 and 2007 where I lost a lot of people in my family. My mother died of a heart attack. I was 29 years old, she was 52, back in 2004. 2 days before her, my aunt, one of my favorite aunts, she passed away just suddenly of hepatitis C. Nobody saw it coming. My mom was in a coma when that happened. My uncle had died a few weeks before that on my mom's side. It was like, it was like then that my family was starting to die off.

2:09My brother died 3 years later as a soldier in Afghanistan, sort of like as a chain effect. He had been with my mom when she had had her heart attack, and she thought she was having an asthma attack, and he was going to try to drive her to the hospital. And he— she had passed out. Somehow he got her in the car and he couldn't drive her stick shift, and he was stuck in her driveway. And she didn't, you know, make it. It was a light heart attack. And so he always had this feeling that he could have saved her. And out of the utter guilt that he felt, and he told us, he's like, I'm gonna go into the military. He was already done with college.

2:53Lea WernliMm-hmm.

2:54Shailia Stephenshe said, I'm going to go to the front and get killed. And then I'll have my, you know, what I deserve, because I couldn't help mom. And he didn't really want that. I think at the end of the day, he— but it ended up happening, right? And, and all of my grandparents died within that period. So I— what I thought, what I really thought is, I know about death. I've done the grief thing, right? I know how to get through a situation like that. I have done it many, many, many times. And I also thought, you know, I, I know the incredible gifts that are in the death of a really close loved one.

3:47Lea WernliMm-hmm.

3:48Shailia StephensLike, I had been— I'd gone through all the years of realizing that these, those people who leave this earth, they stay with you in such a different way than they could ever be with you when they're here. It's like they're infused with you, all the best things about them continue on with you in your life. And so, you know, I felt like I could really see all the blessings that death brings, like the appreciation we get from being the ones who are still alive, like taking the extra breaths for the people who can't.

4:30Like all the stuff, all the spiritual growth that happens when you are faced with situations like that. Like, I thought I've got this down. And I'm kind of entering into a new era of my life in a way. I'll be turning 50 next year in 2024. I'm a '74 child. Like, yoo-hoo, all the '74 people. out there. It's one of my favorite years. And, you know, I, I'm being confronted at the moment with a different kind of dying, if you, if you will. So recently, my father-in-law got diagnosed with cancer of the bladder that had spread to his lungs.

5:22He started chemotherapy. My father is Right now going through like dialysis 3 times a week. His liver isn't functioning, that kind of thing. So elderly people moving into sort of— I'm just gonna say end stage of life. Like, we don't know, who knows how long they both will still be with us. I hope for as long as they possibly want to. But then also recently, Leah, you know about my situation.

5:52Lea WernliYeah.

5:53Shailia StephensI have 2 beautiful dogs. And they're both 9 years old. And a couple of weeks ago, and I think we talked about it on the podcast where Duke was still in the hospital, my little Dalmatian almost died. And he had, it turns out, this super rare autoimmune condition that is on the literature books only 3 times in all of veterinary history. It's this very strange thing. And What I started to feel, or where, let's say, how this new phase feels like to me, I'll just try to explain it.

6:33I don't know if I can, but it's like what I experienced before was everybody who got sick died. Or in my brother's case, the bomb went off, the convoy exploded, he was gone. Like, people just were kind of suddenly not there anymore. And this time, what I'm kind of faced with is this lingering illness, mysterious, unknown. And it feels a lot different than before, like this kind of situation with people and with animals where Mm-hmm. I really kind of made the assumption I'm not supposed to have hope.

7:23Like when I heard the diagnosis of Heiko's father or when the dog was in the clinic, I really noticed I had sort of trained myself in a way to not expect the best. It was just kind of like this realistic kind of thing where just brace yourself, they're probably going to die. That's what happens in a situation like this.

7:51Lea WernliRight.

7:53Shailia StephensAnd where I started to see, wait a minute, is that a good way of being in this situation right now, this time? And I had a few sort of, let's say, milestone moments. And I'm just going to use the example with Duke because—

8:19Lea WernliMm-hmm.

8:22Shailia Stephensthat week was so intense where we were calling the clinic every day and they were basically saying to us, he's not getting better.

8:29Lea WernliHe's—

8:29Shailia Stephensbrace yourself, you know, for the worst. And I got a call, or not a call, I got a WhatsApp message. So a friend of mine, her daughters, they love me to death. They call me Mama Schälchen. They say that I'm their second mother, right? And They heard about Duke, and one is 14 and one is 18. And the 14-year-old, she wrote me a message, and it was something to the effect of, Mama Sheridan, don't worry. Oh, it's going to make me cry when I just talk about it. She was like, Duke's going to get through this.

9:12Lea WernliMm.

9:13Shailia StephensShe was like, he's a warrior dog. She's like, I want to tell you about a couple of weeks ago, my cat Chili got sick. sick and everybody thought he was gonna die.

9:26Lea WernliMm-hmm.

9:28Shailia StephensAnd she said to me, he didn't die. He made it through. And Duke is gonna do exactly that. And she was so positive and so hopeful and so clear in her feeling that he's gonna make it. And I thought, you know, that's so sweet. She's 14. And Then her sister made me a message. It was an audio message, and she's Austrian, and so it was in Austrian dialect. She's got the cutest Austrian dialect. And she said to me the same thing that her sister said. And she said, Duke's going to make it.

10:10She's like, it doesn't matter what it looks like at the moment. It doesn't matter what the doctors are saying. It doesn't matter what your worry is telling you. She says, Duke is a warrior. He's strong. Cats and dogs are strong. And she was really just pumping me with hope, pumping me with light, a positive outlook on the situation.

10:37Lea WernliMm-hmm.

10:38Shailia StephensAnd I stopped listening to the message when it was at its end. And then I saw her making another one. And then she said to me, No, really, Shelley. She's like, I know I'm, I know I'm just a kid. She's like, I know you think you're listening to this and you're thinking this is crazy, but I know.

10:55Lea WernliMm-hmm.

10:56Shailia StephensAnd I told their mother later, like the next day, I said, that really helped me. That 14-year-old and she and the other one just turned 18. I was like, they really helped me. And I started to think about what in the world do I think about this situation? Because so let's go back to the understanding, right?

11:20Lea WernliMm-hmm.

11:20Shailia StephensSo principle of thought, I experience what I think in the moment, right? So I can think, um, so the doctors would call and say, it's not looking good.

11:38Lea WernliMm-hmm.

11:39Shailia StephensYou might have to come in the next 2 hours, kind of whatever. And I would just sink into this feeling of grief and hopelessness, worry, fear, all the stuff. It would just pull me right down. Right. And then I get these messages and they pulled me right back up in the other direction.

12:04Lea WernliRight? Mm-hmm.

12:05Shailia StephensAnd so I started to change my mind about how we can deal with the possibility of losing someone. So what I mean by that is, before, I would have said something like, I don't even know how to put it into words. Yeah, I would have taken the realist kind of lane, right? And then I realized somehow in that moment when I got those messages from the girls, why can't I take that road of hope? I can take that road of hope. I'm allowed to do that.

12:54Lea WernliTotally.

12:55Shailia StephensIt doesn't matter. if it actually happens what the girls say or not. Of course, they don't have a crystal ball. Of course, they don't know how this is going to end. Of course, that's their, you know, their young naivety and their invincibility feeling. I remember that feeling at that age, right? And something in that allowance of hopefulness really did something positive for me.

13:23Lea WernliMhm.

13:24Shailia StephensIn that situation. And it's starting to spread toward the situation with my husband's father, towards my father, towards, towards the world at large, in a way, like, and all the stuff that's going on right now. Yeah. Yeah. So that's fresh for me.

13:45Lea WernliMm-hmm.

13:46Shailia StephensAnd I just wanted to share that with you.

13:53Lea WernliOh, I like that so much. Thank you, Shelia. What just comes to mind is we sometimes we are so afraid in this community that to speak about positive thinking.

14:10Shailia StephensYeah.

14:11Lea WernliYou know, but I'm totally into positive thinking. I'm totally into hope. Like, I heard it. I heard it. It was not that he said it that way, but what I heard is that I can choose. And I do. Because I'm so fed up, or I was, with my— crazy thinking about whatever, that I didn't want to give this part any importance anymore.

14:58Shailia StephensMm-hmm.

14:59Lea WernliAnd I'm, I'm, I know that I'm very strict about it. And in a way, you could see it as positive thinking because I just choose not to go with my low mood. I have it. It's not denying the feelings. It's not denying the angst or grief or hopelessness in moments, but I don't choose the path of, I feel it, so it must be a fact. I just know that underneath, it always points me back to health and hope. So I, I don't have to take any of my feelings as facts. So I rather be present and, and lighthearted as soon as possible than—

16:02Shailia StephensYeah.

16:05Lea Wernlilaying down with my crappy mood and feelings. And it's, it's like knowing that my future self will be able to deal with whatever comes up. illness or death or all the balls that life just has to offer in this matter form space-time thing we are in. So I don't have to be realistic or worry or prepare. Sorry. Oh God.

16:59Shailia StephensThere we go, that word again.

17:00Lea WernliTo be known for prepared.

17:06Shailia StephensPrepared.

17:06Lea WernliI don't have to prepare myself that I'm— what I heard when you were speaking is your mind wanted to prepare you for the grief, and you don't have to be because you're going to be fine when it happens in the moment.

17:30Shailia StephensYeah.

17:30Lea WernliSo it's okay to feel it, but you don't have to stay there.

17:40Shailia StephensYeah.

17:40Lea WernliAnd so to hope and to even feel lighthearted about it is... doesn't make you weak or, or unprepared for whatever will happen. You know what I mean? That was a bit— sorry.

18:05Shailia StephensNo, I do know what you mean. And what, what's coming to me right now is, um, it doesn't mean I'm lying to myself or others.

18:16Lea WernliNo, right?

18:18Shailia StephensBecause I remember, I remember. So this is really an aha moment for me that I've had the last couple of weeks because I remember, I think it was Michael Neal and his wife were dealing with some pretty heavy health issues that his wife was having. It may have been a cancer diagnosis. And I remember him talking in a, in a blog article, or, you know, one of his Caffeine for the Soul moments about he had, he had a realization for himself that he didn't always have to be hopeful.

18:52Lea WernliMm-hmm.

18:54Shailia Stephensabout the diagnosis, the opposite insight that I'm having at the moment, because he was constantly on the path to hope and kind of pushing himself to the path of hope and, and maybe lifting his wife up in a way by staying hopeful when he, when he didn't always feel hopeful.

19:12Lea WernliRight.

19:13Shailia StephensAnd he was kind of scared to go the realist path for a little bit.

19:17Lea WernliMm-hmm.

19:17Shailia StephensLike, this could go the wrong way, right? This could, this could be dicey on the journey, right? Kind of a thing. And I remember when I, when I read that thinking, because that was my old experience of, of, of life and illness and death, was, oh, good for him. He's seeing that, that it's not good to lie to yourself and others. This could also go out the wrong way, right?

19:41Lea WernliMm-hmm.

19:41Shailia StephensAnd there was something in there for me about not lying to yourself or others, right?

19:48Lea WernliMm-hmm.

19:48Shailia StephensAnd what I kind of saw recently was, well, if we anyway can't know how the things are gonna go, if we anyway know that in the moment we're going to be able to deal with the situation because we're, we're made for that, well, why couldn't we choose the path of hope and have a a better, more joyful, uh, experience. And I really— when even just saying that to you, I feel it in my bones right now. It's like, um, it really lifted me up. Yeah. And feeling too, kind of like, from that space, I'm more helpful.

20:32Lea WernliYes.

20:34Shailia StephensRight? I'm more helpful for me. I'm more helpful for my husband, who's also maybe scared and worried, I'm more helpful for Duke. I can make clear decisions for the family, whatever the thing is. And so there's something in there for me. Yeah, it's a shift. Yeah.

20:56Lea WernliI love that so much. Also the example with Michael, because that's what I really, really like about this understanding. is it always reveals the thing for you.

21:12Shailia StephensYes.

21:13Lea WernliTo become more helpful.

21:15Shailia StephensYes.

21:16Lea WernliYou know?

21:16Shailia StephensYes.

21:17Lea WernliAnd that's different for everyone, always. But to just becoming an expert in feeling where it points you towards your new seeing or insight or where this, hmm, that might be true, could be for you.

21:49Shailia StephensYes.

21:50Lea WernliThat's so cool because the closer you get to that essence in you, the easier you navigate whatever comes up in your life. And that's just, that's so hopeful. That's hopeful for humanity for me.

22:17Shailia StephensYeah.

22:17Lea WernliThat's such a big word, but it's really, it's always there for us to see something new and different and more helpful for whatever is going on.

22:33Shailia StephensYeah. Yeah. And I love that, Leah. I love that because, you know, I think sometimes, and that was where our story today started, right? We kind of get into sort of a rigidity of, of, I've already gotten wisdom on this. Right? Like, I already know about this.

22:54Lea WernliThat's true. Oh.

22:56Shailia StephensYou know? And to realize, no, like, we get wisdom in the moment for the moment, and then we get wisdom for the moment for the moment again, and we get wisdom for the moment in the moment again.

23:13Lea WernliYes.

23:14Shailia StephensAnd to recognize how alive that is, how ever-changing that is, how— look in this situation, in this story, life showing the contrast of this way and that way, the realist and the optimist, or, you know, like, here is no hope, here's hope, and showing us like all of it in a way.

23:43Lea WernliMm-hmm.

23:44Shailia StephensUm, that, that's so beautiful. That's so beautiful to me. Yeah. Yeah.

23:53Lea WernliAnd not being afraid of the human experience, probably that's again, we also want to, to use wisdom to not feel the human experience.

24:09Shailia StephensYeah.

24:09Lea WernliAnd that's never possible.

24:11Shailia StephensNever, ever.

24:12Lea WernliAnd to, to, to let yourself step by step feel more of it and being okay with whatever your experience is. So helpful because then it flows through you and you're not trying to get it out of your system or not having it or thinking differently or it's not there. It's never there.

24:59Shailia StephensMm-hmm.

25:07Lea WernliI love that. And our little head can't wrap itself around life or death. It's not possible.

25:18Shailia StephensHmm.

25:18Lea WernliSo we have to, to do it from another place somehow, and we just try so hard to do it. From our little mind. And the clearer we get, the more helpful is little mind as well. That's also very interesting.

25:47Shailia StephensYeah.

25:47Lea WernliAs you said, then you know what to do, then you know what's needed, then you do the calls, then you drive the car, and then it's helpful. It's so hopeful what you shared.

26:09Shailia StephensAnd yeah, yeah, so that feels good to me, Leah. Do you have anything else you want to say, or should we wrap it up for this one?

26:17Lea WernliWrap it up.

26:17Shailia StephensLet's wrap it up. So thanks for listening in, guys, taking some time for yourself, and, um, Yeah, we hope to hear— or that you hear us, and hopefully we hear from you. You can write in the comments area of the podcast as well. Let us know what you're seeing for yourself, if you're enjoying the ride, what you'd like us to talk about, like whatever you want to share with us. And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast, share with your friends who might need this transformative conversation, and we'll see you on the next one.

26:50Lea WernliBye.

26:51Shailia StephensBye.